The Power of Inclusion & Storytelling | Joey Aviles

Joey Aviles 00:00

Accessing feedback and asking for feedback is key. Here is our ability to intentionally ask questions that will increase our awareness, that will increase our connection, that will increase how we show up to the world, and that will literally improve how we do business with our people.

Judd Shaw 00:31

Joey, thank you so much for being on the show.

Joey Aviles 00:36

I am so happy to be with you, my friend.

Judd Shaw 00:39

I really appreciate it. I’m happy here too and I have to ask you before we get into the conversation about the incredible work on diversity and inclusion that you’re doing, tell me how’s that baby boy?

Joey Aviles 00:53

Teddy is so alive, he is 11 months old, and in two weeks, he will turn one year old.  My life has just changed for the better, and as a keynote speaker, thought leader, having access to a whole new level of wisdom, Judd, is just powerful. Now, I’ll also tell you, I’m also exhausted at the same time, so I’m trying to stay awake and keep going, but thank you, thank you for that, he’s doing great, Teddy, Teddy’s happy.

Judd Shaw 01:33

You know, I want to ask a question and Teddy is going to be a real great anchor for us in the beginning of this conversation because I’ve also written children’s picture books. In fact, one is behind me, Sterling the Night and Nugget the Dragon. I got to get Teddy some books.  You know, but in the children’s picture books, they are really there to help our little ones learn really incredible and important social and emotional learning skills as they grow into bigger people. And so the first book focuses on empathy, the second in fairness, the third on connection. And so I know that our babies, our humans aren’t born racist. Right? How do you teach kids early on? How will you plan to teach Teddy diversity and inclusion?

Joey Aviles 02:38

I love that question, John. And the reason I love the children books that you’re bringing to the equation is every time I travel, I go to different cities. And every time that data gets to leave, it’s time that I don’t get to spend with Teddy. And I developed a tradition in my house of picking up a children’s book in every city that I visit and every trip. It doesn’t matter if I go to the same city, every single tower, data brings a book. And each one of the books that I bring home, they’re not 100% Latino or Hispanic or in Spanish. I put a goal of bringing home different stories. So from early on, I want to give Teddy access to the brilliance of the world. And the brilliance and richness and exquisiteness of the world doesn’t reside in the four walls that we often stay in. I want Teddy to see how people in Asia, in Latin America, in United States, in Africa, all over the place live. I want them to see that there are other religions, that there are other beliefs, that there are other points of views, and that the richness of one’s life resides in our ability to honor people, not just for what they believe or what they do, but because they are people. And that lesson starts at home.  And, John, let me give you an example. One of the books that I pick up talks about the hijab. We don’t see that much where I live. So there is a book that just shows the importance of the hijab to a particular community and why, and just through a story and through pictures, we are able to access the heart from early on. So that’s how I will teach Teddy to become fluent in human, which is what diversity and inclusion is to me.

Judd Shaw 05:30

Thank you for that answer, really thoughtful. And I love the tradition that you set by picking up these books for Teddy. I’m gonna actually grab one of these because.

Joey Aviles 05:44

I want to learn more about them, Jot, so tell me more.

Judd Shaw 05:47

Well, I’ll tell you for diversity on the subject, the the original publication of this book, this is a second print, looked very different than this book, and even the original version, which was almost like a paperback soft pamphlet that I had created, looks even more different. And there was someone I was working with, her name was Jamie, and she was really helpful.  She pointed out to me at one point that in the back of this of the story one that I was doing, when Sterling gets brought into the great chamber and celebrated because of his empathy that he showed a dragon, all of the characters in this version at one point were white. And that was because I also work from with an illustrator who is a wonderful, wonderful woman from Serbia. She gives her perspective when she was illustrating, you know, a European and saw the characters as white and most of them were actually bond at the time. And so Jamie had pointed out that we didn’t have a lot of diversity. And so we went back and we started thinking about these characters. But to your point, what what are some of them are wearing? Why are they wearing that? You know, I can even get underneath that with these characters, not only just to show diversity by the color of the skin, by the the difference of our hair, color or eyes, but also that Teddy could learn why is this character wear this? Why does this character have a shawl and other characters don’t? That’s such a great point. Thank you.

Joey Aviles 07:43

No, absolutely. And you know, diversity is often encapsuled in ethnicity, gender and race and color. And now there are strong reasons for that, right? But people often forget that there are more than 35 diversity dimensions that often get ignored.  And nowadays, neurodiversity is playing a huge component of diversity and others, like where you grew up, like your economical status, like and many other aspects that are so important. So, John, thank you. Thank you so much for giving that example.

Judd Shaw 08:26

When you’re reading this book to Teddy, when you’re reading a children’s picture book, the best way, I’m just going to throw out an unsolicited tip here. Please, please give it to me.  As an author of children’s picture books, is that I found the getting into the character, whatever that story is, what is the voice, right? So if you’re reading Nugget the Dragon, maybe the dragon sounds like this, right? And then Teddy’s like, even at one, two, three, four, five are those little kiddos. Their imagination runs wild when they’re hearing the story and that deeper level of connection between the parent and the child, you reading it to Teddy, a therapist or teacher reading it to a student or patient. When you start to get into the character, how is that character acting and standing up or maybe, and you really embody the character, you really get into that children’s picture book. That’s the art of the pictures too.

Joey Aviles 09:37

100% and you can see it in their eyes that when you play with you, you know, in my case, I do the dancing, I do the singing, I do the

Judd Shaw 09:49

I knew you would. I knew you would. And I want to watch this. You read the story.

Joey Aviles 09:55

Yeah, and the way we tell the stories, and it just allows us to see the world through their eyes, and to me, that being the biggest gift I have received from Teddy is to see the world through his little eyes, the enchantment, the joy, the curiosity, the fear, the concern, the happiness, all of it, often at the same time. Right.

Judd Shaw 10:29

How can you help me and workplaces and organizations all over the world learn how to see diversity through other eyes?

Joey Aviles 10:45

There is a secret weapon. And I teach this, the ability to tell stories and to listen to stories. So let’s start with our ability to tell a story. Often the number one question that I get from executives from across the world, Jad, this is common from people in Europe, Latin America, Asia, and United States. Joey, how do I connect with people at a deeper level? How do I achieve that when we have so many mixed agreements? And I always go and ask, what stories are you telling? When we open our hearts to tell a story about ourselves, a story about success, or failure, or lessons learned, doesn’t matter. But when you tell stories, you give people access to your core values. Core values serve as a breach of connection across ethnicities, races, and languages, et cetera.  So when I ask that question, what stories are you telling, people then start thinking about how do they engage in conversation. And when we engage in conversation, it’s not just about the talking or the telling, but it’s also about our listening. So there is an art. When we share, we often open a door and encourage the other person to also share their stories. And it’s in that energy of giving and taking, of sharing and listening, that we get access to new perspectives.  I’ll tell you this. New perspectives open our mind. And being open-minded is the new smart. Not just in 2024, but in 2020, 2030 as well. Our ability to access new perspectives will give us an edge to access new breakthroughs.

Judd Shaw 13:05

So interesting because I’m doing a lot of work on helping organizations learn to create shame friendly workplaces and in stepping out from behind our shame the same kind of two principles apply one is Owning our story, you know, I I said that there’s a lot of parts of my story that I used to feel a lot of shame and that led to a lot of isolation and a lot of loneliness and a lot of coping mechanisms and When I was able to tell my story and own all the parts Shed light on him I was able to step out of that dark shame and so on one side I always say owning your story Stories used to be the way we learned where safe places were and what what was safe to eat and how to survive and and how to avoid a you know, a tiger trying to eat you but and and so and and so storytelling has evolved and We’re all storytellers and we all have a story to tell and the second part of that side The other side of the shame is the listening, but it’s the listening without judgment That that creates that safe space absolutely and

Joey Aviles 14:26

That’s a muscle, Chad, that is a muscle. We often are connected with people that think like us, that act like us, that come from where we grew up, and that’s the first limitation, when our stories are coming all from the same source. So when we get a chance to get outside of what we consider the norm, then we start exercising that muscle of perspective taking and suspending judgment when we are listening to someone’s story. It is not easy.  It’s happening here in our brain, so it requires practice, Chad. One of the top exercises that I do during our training efforts and initiatives is asking people to think about their top three moments, moments that impacted where they are today. And that is also simple, John, right? You’re thinking about those moments that really transform who you are today. And that exercise allows them to start looking around who they are as humans. And then I asked them to select one word that serves as a common denominator among those moments. And then the secret step is share a summary of your top moment and your word with a complete stranger, with someone that you don’t know, right there in that moment. And magic happens when we take the time to tell and listen to stories.

Judd Shaw 16:14

You know, I couldn’t agree anymore that that muscle is one that can be strengthened. It can be worked on.  Absolutely. And I did. And so, you know, I’m curious when you’re doing this exercise, is it the sense of being proud about that moment and being able to share that? And for the other side of having somebody to connect and listen to it that creates that magic sauce?

Joey Aviles 16:44

So that’s a beautiful, beautiful inquiry because it is, yes, and let me tell you, every time I do this exercise, I get exercise, I get surprises because people are different. There are many stories, Jad, that are actually painful. So many stories bring a lot of weight with them.  So it’s completely down. There is always, for some reason, pride involved because it’s a pride of, oh, I overcame that. Or look how I survived that. So there is always a connection to that sentiment of celebration, of confirming that I, that we, in fact, are resilient, that we can overcome. Yet it doesn’t always start with pride. It often starts with shame. It often starts with fear or a moment that was so challenging to me. Yet, in my experience doing this, there is always that point during the conversation when there is a moment of pride, celebration, joy, happiness, and a confirmation that, hey,

Judd Shaw 18:10

got this help me understand I can I can see the inclusion help me understand how that also helps on diversity

Joey Aviles 18:18

When we start sharing our stories, when we start listening to different stories, we start entering into the concept of inclusion. Now, diversity by itself cannot really survive in its own. You can have a lot of diversity in a room, but if you don’t have that inclusion, that sense of belonging and connection, there will always be something missing.  So when we start telling stories and listening to stories, that’s not enough, Jad. Then is where inclusion comes into the place, asking which stories are missing, which stories are not being told, and which stories are trying to get access to the light of day or to the spotlight, but yet there are so many barriers that they are not being unleashed. That’s the powerful thing about inclusion. It’s asking which stories are we not having access to.

Judd Shaw 19:37

I try such deeper connection.

Joey Aviles 19:39

Absolutely, absolutely strive for that. And you know, connection is such a powerful topic, John, whether we are looking at a children’s book, whether we are sharing our story, every human being is wired for connection. And you earlier talked about moments of loneliness, moments of shame, and those are things that often prevent us of achieving true, deep connection. And we are living in a historical moment that loneliness has skyrocketed and connection is the solution of bringing us together.  Yet we operate in a highly polarized world. So these topic, these exercises, these conversations are more needed now than ever before.

Judd Shaw 20:38

So, on one side, it’s telling our story. What’s on the other side of it?

Joey Aviles 20:46

I believe in the other side of it is that there are a few things that come to mind. You know, we tell our stories, we showcase pride. In the other side, all of that is the evidence that we are alive. And we often go through life, either running, moving to the next challenge, the next deadline, and there is a chance to forget that we are alive. So at the other side of telling our stories is the evidence that we often need the most, that we are alive, and as long as we are alive, we have a chance to make every moment count.  That’s one answer, Judd. In the other answer that comes to mind is we tell the story, right? We tell the story. In the other side is the power that we all have to encourage other people to tell the stories, to tell their stories. So yes, by all means strive to share those moments, share those stories. But you know what the real power resides? Is when you use your story to encourage others to tell theirs. That’s true power in my point of view. You know,

Judd Shaw 22:15

I share that, I join you in that opinion because I found that the more vulnerable I became in my workplace, the more vulnerability I encouraged and I also found something incredible that for so long I was driving for connection and yet I realized the real blocker was that I just needed to show up authentically and when I did, my authenticity didn’t drive people away, it brought them closer because they began to share more vulnerability too.

Joey Aviles 22:54

Absolutely. And you’re giving an excellent, excellent point. And it’s leading by example, which is hard. You know, it’s everybody talks about that.  But when you demonstrate by example, what’s vulnerable vulnerability? How can we embrace vulnerability in the workplace? Then that gives strength to other people to show up in the same way. And that job is connected to the concept of psychological safety and how important that is in our workplaces today.

Judd Shaw 23:29

You know, one of the exercises, and I’m interested in what your thought was, is that at the end of the week, my team, we go around and we’re like, okay, so what was our best mistake this week? Who made a great one? Who learned from it? Let’s all learn together.  And now it’s like, if you didn’t think you made a mistake, you better make one up because everybody’s making a mistake, right? But it encourages the idea, right, that for my team, that this is a safe space, that we can high-five each other and really root for our successes. But when things didn’t go as planned, that’s where it matters most, is can we come together, talk about what we could do better, what went wrong without assigning blame, and all equally learn from them.

Joey Aviles 24:22

That right there is a clear example of inclusion, it’s an example of belonging, it’s an example of striving for psychological safety by embracing a growth mindset. And to grow, we cannot grow, Jod, without embracing vulnerability. It’s just not possible.  You got to, you got to embrace the vulnerability of failing the vulnerability, of being embarrassed, the vulnerability of getting it wrong. And often when we have leaders creating intentionally those spaces by having the rituals that you are showcasing is a way to grow, it’s a way to learn, it’s a way to safely move forward together. And every CEO right now is concerned about that, their workplaces and how conducive they are for growth.

Judd Shaw 25:33

So for leaders like me, you’re one of the you’re one of the leading experts on inclusion in the world. And what are some ways or things that you would suggest to a leader?  We’ll talk about frontline in a moment. But when you approach leadership, what are some of the real nuggets there on inclusion? How can I improve as a leader to create a more safer sense of belonging and connected workforce, and ultimately, you know, one that feels a psychologically safe.

Joey Aviles 26:13

The number one thing, Judd, is our ability to fully understand who we are. One of the top strategies that I share is accelerating awareness. At some point of my career, Judd, I was the director of executive leadership programs at the Department of Defense. I had the opportunity to lead one of the oldest leadership programs in the nation. And the number one detractor of careers was lack of awareness, number one. And when we lack our awareness, then we don’t know ourselves. So we cannot own how we show up into the world. And how we show up to the world is either an accelerator of inclusion or a detractor. So we always start with awareness. How well do you know yourself? Number one, do you know where you’re going in life, what you want to accomplish as a leader? Number three, do you have an understanding? How are you perceived by those around you? And number four, have you owned the power that you have on the energy that you bring to every interaction? So that’s awareness, is a complex, a concept. But we always start there because you’re either accelerating or detracting. And that’s a lifelong process.  So awareness to increase inclusion, but we cannot stop there. The second step that I recommend leaders is to intentionally create spaces of connection. And the number one strategy to do that is storytelling, which we cover during our conversation. But here’s the importance of storytelling. We have to vary the style of storytelling. And what I mean by style is where and how are you telling your stories? Is it one-on-one? Is it within your teams? Is it in town halls? Is it across the community? The magic resides in creating a combination of spaces to drive connection through storytelling.  That’s the secret. And that’s where you leverage belonging through inclusion. So how are you telling your stories? How often and where is the second thing that I will ask leaders? But we don’t stop there neither. The third concept that I show people is our ability to integrate our wellbeing and our workloads. Often, that combination is bringing people down in workplaces and that affects our ability to be included and to include people. And here is why. When we experience high levels of stress, we often tend to exclude people more. Let me say that again. When we experience burnout, when we are stressed out, when we are exhausted, don’t you think I’m thinking about including Susan or Jeff? No, I’m thinking about surviving. I’m making good day. So there is a strong correlation between having wellbeing and our ability to intentionally include people and teams and workplaces. So those three strategies are right at the top to increase inclusion in the workplace.

Judd Shaw 30:17

It’s a great strategies. And, you know, I can give you the the live version on my leadership that I experienced through those three points. One of my frameworks I talk about in finding connection is conscious awareness. Because it’s how do how do you how do you solve a problem or even address a problem that you’re not even aware of? Right? And so I’m, I’m, I’m, let’s, let’s call this version one of me in my office, right is the guy who is so terrified of mistakes. Because not only I want things done perfect. But what do they those mistakes about others say about me as a leader?  And, you know, filled with shame, not being able to share the story, not being able to be vulnerable. I’m running around, I’m, I’m hearing ideas in different places. And I’m yelling at my team, because we didn’t come up with the ideas. And I’m shaming people. And, like, I’m going around. And what I don’t realize is that I’m like, a really asshole boss. And I, you know, I think we’re doing good for our client. I think we’re, you know, moving the product and the service. And what does that have to do with anything? If I’m not taking care of myself, what does that have to do with you? But then I realize that, to your point, now it’s, it’s my my own inability to take care of myself properly is come into my workplace. Joey, it got so bad that there was a time where I would drive late at night, after work, into the sketchiest neighborhoods and retreat into methamphetamine den and do meth all night. And then go back. And the next day, shower up and, and go back to work. And it didn’t affect the work as a lawyer, it affected my relationship as a leader. Because I can, I had the energy to out lawyer or dive into any case and what do my job. But now when it came to working with others, and having others feel safe with me as their leader, the wheels were falling off. And then I realized that and in this 2.0 version, when I’m like, Oh, I was blaming problems on everybody else shaming others mistakes, you know, unable to really put the oxygen mask on me first. And then when I started to take care of myself the right way, then I could show up as leader in the way you’re talking about. And we recently did a survey at our company, a two year survey. And I think the average percentage of increase over those two years in our company with our team were almost 42% on average questions like, I feel safe with my leader, why I have a good relationship with my manager, I feel safe to have a life work balance, I feel encouraged to do the work in the job, I have clarity of expectations, all of these markers average 42% increase. When I when I finally realized how I was showing up as a leader, and changed.

Joey Aviles 33:51

John, I want to go deeper into that moment, and if you could give to us the moment or the moments that you realize, that you saw in front of you version number one, can you just give us access to that moment and what is it that you did to go and start the process of going to version number two? It’s a great question.

Judd Shaw 34:20

question. And at the heart of that was that I couldn’t nail the singular problem that I had focused on, that I threw a bunch of money at solving, that I gave a lot of resource energy and time, and that was culture. I would throw weekly events, let’s go for everybody who go for Tuesday drinks, we’ll call it two for Tuesdays, and we’ll work out on Wednesday, we’ll have workout Wednesdays, and we’ll have Thursday, whatever. And I’m trying to throw all these things at the team and resources at encouraging the culture without even addressing me as a leader.  And when I finally was like, what is the problem? It was like a Taylor Swift moment, it’s like, oh, I’m the problem. And then I was like, I need to brush my teeth better. I need to shower, you know, and like, you know, the basic drink my war like eat help, like all of these self care to be able to take care of others. How could I do that if I can’t take care of myself? And so I started focusing really on sleep and nutrition and, and my own personal health.  And when I started showing up my relationships with certain people at work, the ones that I was having more day to day, we’re also beginning to change. And the more that I was starting to come up and, and I would say like, Hey, Christy, I’m having a really bad day today. I’m struggling. Can you help me here? And she’s like, I got you, Judd, like I’ll cover this meeting for you. And, and then I was like, wow. And then the light bulb went off. I was like, all of these little mini moments are what I wanted to see at a macro level. And I realized that’s when I put the two and two together, that it was me that if I could change the way that I was leading, then I can change the culture and organization too.

Joey Aviles 36:28

100%. And what you’re giving me is an example that as humans, we automatically want to belong to something else, belong in our workplace or to another cause. But we forget that everything starts belonging to ourselves.  First, if we skip that, John, we will always come back to that moment. And you just showcase a clear story, example of why belonging to yourself first is a critical step that we cannot shine.

Judd Shaw 37:10

Yes, you’re entirely right, because at that version, I was wholly disconnected from myself. Not only the world, but from myself.  And so when I first started connecting first with myself and creating that authentic connection, I can then do that with others. Between leadership and the front line, now how do you bring them together? What’s the key to bringing those two and making that connection for inclusion?

Joey Aviles 37:45

Frontline workers are not an afterthought, and they know that. We will not be able to fake that. They will smell it three, four, five miles away. So the way we close that gap is by asking the question early on, how do we close the gap between headquarters, or however you call it, and where our mission gets accomplished? That’s the first single step.  That’s the first single step. But then there is a deeper step that we need to pay attention to, John. And that is to make sure that our frontline workers have a space at the table, a permanent space in decision-making, a permanent voice in our day-to-day operations. That’s where I have seen where the gap gets close, that they’re not just a little step in the process. Oh, let’s get the voice of our frontline workers. No, they are the voice. They are the process. They are part of our mission.

Judd Shaw 39:01

the whole thing right it’s right is for them to be seen and heard is really about making them feel valued it’s not just a you know asking a question in a survey and doing nothing about it it’s you know what I mean right and speaking of survey what’s a what’s a great way to survey inclusion

Joey Aviles 39:28

There are some remarkable products out there that look at different values to measure inclusion. For example, in my expertise, I did a lot of work in the federal government. And believe it or not, John, the federal government was one of the first big organizations that started measuring inclusion intentionally, believe it or not. So some of the measures that we looked about is the perception of fairness. Very important, very hard to measure, but that perception is critical.  Communication, it’s communication considered to be opened and available. The concept of belonging, do I feel a part of this organization? And there are some psychometrics that we can measure and study to get to the bottom line of that. But then also engagement. Our people engage in their day-to-day interactions or operations. And then I can keep going and going and going on metrics and perspectives that we can study to measure inclusion. But if your audience is curious, I will certainly take a look at what the federal government started doing over two decades ago to measure inclusion in the workplace. But to your point,

Judd Shaw 41:10

You bring up, it’s not about necessarily just strongly agree, disagree, a 10, a 3, a 1, or even the question. It’s that perspective.  I could feel that I’m doing everything for the culture. We’re holding weekly lunches and free breakfasts and all this, but it’s what is their perspective of the culture? What is their viewpoint as to how they see what you may see otherwise?

Joey Aviles 41:42

You know, and as a former chief of DNI, that perspective, Judd, is the heart of our efforts. So studying, inquiring about what’s forming their perspective is key, and it goes beyond an annual survey. It actually is the day-to-day operations that they go through in a day-to-day basis.

Judd Shaw 42:11

Yeah, I was, you know, I would ask my team, it’s almost like a leadership report, rather than waiting for an annual survey. A lot of times is, so how do you think I led that meeting? How’d I do there? You know, I’m not afraid to ask that question.  How to, well, walk out of leader, a meeting, I’ll ask my COO, how’d you think I did? How’d I do there? What could I have done better? And the same thing with our teams and departments. And I think also by them hearing that question, first of all, they’re like, I’m like, what can I do better, meeting went well. You know, asking for that also gives that allowance, that permission for your team to do the same. And I have to give credit to a friend of mine, a retired EVP from Disney, Daniel Cockrell. Dan taught me a start, stop, continue. I may have messed up the order, but it’s what do we, what, hey team, what do I need to start doing or we as a company, what should we stop doing and what should we continue doing? And when you ask that question and they feel like not only are you asking, but you’re going to do something with the information that I tell you, that really creates a psychological safety.

Joey Aviles 43:29

Absolutely. And it’s being unafraid of the feedback that you’re going to get.  And to your point of, hey, Joey, how do we increase inclusion if accessing feedback and asking for feedback is key here, is our ability to intentionally ask questions that will increase our awareness, that will increase our connection, that will increase how we show up to the world, and that will literally improve how we do business with our people.

Judd Shaw 44:06

I’ll tell you a funny story about that, Joey, is that when Dan, uh, originally I had hired Dan as a consultant, um, Cockrol consulting great, and Dan had come over to the firm and not only did he do his survey, but he met with the team and he met with them separate from me. Get out of the room. He said, right. And this was to help address leadership management culture.  And then there was going to be a big lunch. I’ll join the team at lunch. And then this was about 15 members of my company. And then we’re going to go back into this room and now I’m joining the group with Dan. And at lunch, Joey, my team was looking at me like, you know, I ordered everybody with sardines on top of their food or something, you know, just staring at me. I’m like, there’s something going on here, right? And somebody next to me is like, um, just keep open minded. And I walked back into that room and they had the, like, this is what we wanted to stop doing. And most of those things are the things that I, that I was pushing, you know, it was, it was the perspective and, and, and Dan turned to me and he’s like, how does this land? What does this sound like? And with those eyes watching on me, Joey, I knew that this was one of those moments as a leader that I, I gathered myself in. The first thing I said was, I really appreciate the feedback. Thank you for your honesty because I knew the weight of that, that you could cut it at lunch. And so, you know, going into that, I knew that my reaction to that feedback was going to be the most important thing that would come out of this event.

Joey Aviles 45:54

And understanding the importance of that moment, Jod, is huge because often a leader, a typical leader, will be in the heat of the moment and forgetting and being blinded by the feedback and not understanding how important their reaction to the feedback is. And I call those moments, Jod, perspective-flipping, shocking-truth kind of moments. And those moments either make or break your leadership. And having that clarity, that awareness, that fullness of perception to see the moment happening in front of you is the muscle that we’re talking about here.

Judd Shaw 46:46

And I appreciate that. And for everybody to understand you’re right.  And that’s what that’s that’s why I’m always honest about the 1.0 version, because this took this took time. It took effort. I it was that muscle was like I had to go to the gym, the leadership gym. I had to go to leadership training track. I had to go to the leadership barbell to to strengthen that muscle in order to do that.

Joey Aviles 47:12

Absolutely. And this is a life-long process, John. There are some people that think, Joe, wait, when am I going to be done with this kind of growth? It’s a life-long process.  Every stage, every season of your life will bring a new surprise, a new blind spot, a new area of growth. And embracing that reality of the process is what makes this so much fun. As long as I’m alive, I’ll have space to go. I’ll have space to grow. I’ll have space to get better. And to me, that’s the beauty of being alive, baby.

Judd Shaw 48:00

Mmm, you know what? That’s the mic drop and I will tell you This has been the greatest time Joey This is on its way to teddy and I cannot thank you enough I had the greatest time on this conversation and not only you know that The the perspective taking in the learning, you know I just hope others got out of what I did too and I can’t thank you enough for your time my man Teddy

Joey Aviles 48:35

We’ll love, we’ll love it. And we will have to do what call so you can do the voiceover, okay?  So my brother, thank you so much for everything that you are doing for our community, Jod. We need more people, leaders like you. Keep shining, keep doing, because this world needs more, more.

Judd Shaw 48:56

I’ll be Joey. I can’t thank you enough my friend and you know, it’s it’s it’s trailblazers like you that allow people like me to Learn it to follow it because I didn’t learn empathy and inclusion growing up But you know I learned it later on from people like you who have really set the path and thank you so much for helping organizations and companies worldwide and myself and that little boy Teddy

Joey Aviles 49:22

Thank you so much, my brother.